Chapter Two: The Interviews - Entering The Tibetan Psyche

An interview can be an excellent way to unlock the treasure chest of opinions and insights inside a person's mind.  It can also cause them to make great effort to say what they think you want to hear or what they think they should say.  Keeping this in mind, I asked various Tibetans two questions related to meat eating and got both treasures and rhetoric.

1)  In your opinion, what is the relationship between the Buddhist philosophy of nonviolence and a Buddhist practitioner's life style, for example eating meat?

2)  Do you consider eating meat to be in violation of the Bodhisattva Vow to not harm sentient beings?

The following consists of twenty-one interviews I did with Tibetans from various walks of life, from politicians to farmers to monks and Lamas.  For the most part, I was very impressed with the thoughtfulness of their answers and the depth of their insights.  I will give a short profile of each interviewee, followed by their responses.

Tendar - Salesman of Tibetan Carpets, Bangalore, India (Early Forties)
Tendar is one of three brothers married to Sangye, and was the kindest to me when I was at the Tibetan refugee camp.  I stayed at his home in Bangalore twice and we became very good friends.  The interview was in English.

1)  "I think there are many relationships between the two.  What did Lord Buddha teach the people? He taught them not to do harm to any life-whether man, animal or insect.  Treat them as your parents because every being has been your mother in a previous incarnation.  One Lama visited a family.  The father was reborn as a dog in that family.  Their enemy was reborn as their child. They beat and starved the dog, yet carefully nurtured the child."

The Lama he is talking about, named Arya Katayana, was quoted as saying, "He eats his fathers flesh; he kicks his mother away.  He dandles on his lap the enemy that he killed.  The wife is gnawing at her husband's bones.  I laugh to see what happens in Samsara's show." Tendar continues,

"Every life is interchanging - we can be born as a man, an animals and an insect.  That's why we have to treat all beings as our parents according to the Buddhist philosophy.  We want them happy, not sad.  We wish them continuous happiness.  We have to treat all animals and men the same.  When we are eating meat we don't think: it is careless when we think about the religious side-very sinful.  When we eat, we should try to cause less suffering to animals.  As the Buddhist philosophy says, a human life is very precious. We can go up or go down. To be born as a human gives us a good opportunity to practice to become a good person.  If we do good things in this life, our next life will be better.  If we sin, eat meat, beat dogs, have enemies, fight or cause sadness, in our next life, we will go down to the lower realms and be born as an animal, or even worse.  If we become an animal, we can't say anything, like 'I want water' - because we can't speak.  They get all things on their own. Furthermore, we want a human body, so that we can become a Buddha."

"We have to stop meat eating.  We eat meat in Tibet because vegetables are scarce, but here in India we should change.  There are so many types of vegetables that are good for our health.  If we continue to eat meat, we may have health problems.  We can stop.  Some Lamas, for example, His Holiness the Dalai Lama, are only eating meat occasionally - once a week, or twice a month.  We can do this too and eventually stop eating meat.

I heard in Nepal, there are many Tamangs.  They used to be Hindus and they kill many animals. They cut off their heads in front of the temple and threw the blood at the gods.  Our Lamas taught Buddhism to the Tamangs and now, they have stopped this practice and have taken up the Buddhist teachings.  At present, many Buddhist followers are eating meat.  This can be stopped, but it takes time.  It's best not to harm anybody; killing is not right.  Animals don't speak, otherwise they would ask man why they are being killed.  This is very sad, very sad indeed.  So this meat eating should be stopped among all Buddhist followers.  Meat eating is against Buddha's teachings.  Many Lamas are trying to stop eating meat."

2)  "There is no excuse.  It is clearly a violation.  All the Buddhist philosophies say we should stop this meat eating and take vegetables.  Tibet is Tibet.  But now Tibetans live all over the world.  They should stop this meat eating and just eat vegetables.  If a Buddhist follower isn't capable of living without meat, he should recite the meat mantra seven or 21 times.  According to Buddhist philosophy, we should do like thus."

I was fortunate to have a long conversation with Tendar in their SUV on the way to visiting monasteries in a refugee camp, forty kilometers away where they had relatives.

Here is what I recorded from that conversation,

"At Bodhgaya, (in late December, 1999), His Holiness made the people promise to stop eating meat on the 8th, 15th and 30th days of the month, as merit is multiplied on these days.  When my family saw animals eating animals on TV, they started to get the idea that we should not eat meat.  During Saka dawa the month of the Buddha's birth, enlightenment and entrance into Nirvana, and other religious festivals, people have started to abstain from eating meat.  His Holiness tells people they should not take meat as it is a sin.  When we stop eating meat, our mind is changed-the anger mind is diminished.  Eating meat is so engrained in the Tibetan consciousness that no one thinks wrong about it, they don't think about animals being killed.This is the same in the monastery."

"Now, people are seeing the animals being slaughtered and are starting to think that meat is wrong.  Monasteries, and all Tibetan families, have stopped eating meat for these three days, and on other occasions.  At Swayambu in Nepal, a nunnery has a big festival in which they've totally stopped eating meat.  They use rice and flour and things instead.  Some Tibetans have stopped eating meat altogether.  My daughter eats meat about seven days a month.  She once saw a chicken's head cut off at a slaughter shop.  Its body was still moving after its head was cut off.  So now she is disgusted by the meat and the stench.  The animals are not killed by us, they are killed by the butcher.  So there is not as much sin in purchasing meat from them.  We don't say we have no sin, we have sinned, but it is a lesser sin than the butcher.  There is a mantra to recite when we consume meat.

If we say it 7 or 21 times when we eat meat, praying thus, "As I am taking this meat, I pray that this animal will not go to hell, but go to heaven," this will help the animal to go to heaven.  This will help the dead animal.  Lamas recite this mantra, but it is too long for normal people.  The Lamas say we shouldn't take meat; it is very sinful.  Animals feel pain, so it is dangerous and sinful.  If you can't stop eating meat, pray that the animal will go to heaven.  Animal killing is very bad because you're inflicting pain on them.  You should teach people the mantra.  That will help.  There are some Lamas who don't take meat.  There are now many people who are not taking meat."

Norbu - Settlement Officer (Chief Political Figure), Bylakuppe, India (Late Thirties)
Norbu had the aura of a leader and was very decisive when he spoke.  He was a bit intimidating, but generous and kind.  The interview was conducted in English.

1)  "Meat eating doesn't need to relate to Buddhist teachings.  Meat is compulsive in Tibet.  We have a consciousness that we have committed a sin against the Buddhist teachings.  The general public inherits Buddhism, but doesn't know much.  Mainly, the monasteries have Buddhist knowledge.  Without meat, there are health consequences among Tibetans.  Tibetans need meat in their diet to maintain health, especially the elders.

Kindness and compassion are easy to talk about, but tough to practice.  As an individual person, we all have our own approach.  As a government servant, here the most important thing is one should speak less and try to practice what the Buddha and His Holiness have said-how to be kind.  Public officials need to practice honesty, sincerity and selflessness.  These shouldn't be negated.  Others are more important than oneself.  Putting this into practice, however, is hard to do."

2)  "Yes, I think so, we have violated the Buddhist teachings.  Also we have started now to offer milk and bread at the altar rather than meat and wine.  There may be some changes that will coincide better with Buddhist teachings than with what we are practicing now."

Tsering Dorje - Secretary at local Tibetan Government Post, Bylakuppe, India (Late Thirties)
Tsering was the first man that I interviewed, on the first day of the Tibetan New Year.  He later helped me to translate my written questions into Tibetan and was very kind and honest.  The interview was conducted with Tsering in English.

1)  "Buddhist philosophy is based on nonviolence.  If you go deep, you find a lot on nonviolence.  Lay people don't know much.  Non-harm is in the scriptures, but Tibetans worry that if they don't eat meat they will not be healthy.  Since Tibetans have eaten meat for so many years, they feel that they need to keep eating it.  Young Tibetan people understand that meat is against Buddhism and that they don't need as much now in exile as they did in Tibet.  Tibet is cold and there are no vegetables.  We try to eat less meat now.  It is bad for the body in the hot climate."

2)  "Eating meat is very much harmful to the Bodhisattva.  Every Buddhist scripture is basically 'non-harm'.  Eating meat very much harms sentient beings.  If you do not eat meat, animals will be saved, get freedom, get to eat grass in the open.  If you eat meat, the butcher will kill the animals.  Animals will lose their life.  The old generation knows that eating meat is a sin and that the animals will lose their lives.  Even then they are eating meat.  I think it is an old, bad habit.  So we are trying to change this habit by eating less meat in order to give more freedom to the animals." ...

Geshe Tenzin Dorje - Sera Je Monastic University (Mid-Sixties)
One of the most highly respected men in Sera Monastery, his picture is hung in the Sera Je library next to the Dalai Lamas.  This animated man with unfathomable spiritual depth has the compassion, kindness and humor of a Buddha.  He looks very young and alive.  The interview was in Tibetan and translated from the tape recording by Tinley.

1)  "Not to harm other people, this is usually the most important precept in Buddhism.  There is a strong relation between daily life and non-harm.  Normally, we like those who don't harm.  If we don't kill insects, tell bad words or show any anger, then we will be a likeable person.  If I become angry, you will become angry.  It will harm the other person, which is not good.  The daily practice and principles of non-harm have a strong relationship.  A Buddhist practitioner should not harm other beings and should help them whenever possible.  We can't practice all of the teachings of the Buddha.  But non-harm is the most important.

However, it is difficult to say whether it is possible to cause no harm whatsoever in one's daily practice. Harm happens all the timeslander, harmful speech, stepping on insects.  There is almost always some violence.  If you eat meat, it harms other beings.  How does this happen?  Although I don't kill, I am indirectly participating in the killing.  So indirectly it becomes a kind of violence.  If I buy meat, the butcher kills more and more animals.  I don't kill, but they kill-I buy it and eat it.  If I buy, you buy, he buys, we all buy-then he will kill more and more.  It will become a kind of violence.

If everyone stops eating meat, they won't buy and he won't kill. Animals won't die, which is good. If we eat meat, he will kill.  Buy once, he will kill-then he'll kill more and more. So indirectly it becomes very violent. Buying meat indirectly becomes a kind of harming. Buy again, he will kill again-so that's why it's not good. Meat eating is not good."

Question: Will the butcher be able to achieve Buddhahood faster if less people eat meat?

"After a long, long time the butcher will be able to achieve Buddhahooda long, long time.  It is a big, big sin to kill animals.  It's not easy to attain Buddhahood after this-it is a huge sin.  If he doesn't kill or harm but rather helps other beings, then he can transform himself into a positive spirit.  Then he will be able to achieve Buddhahood quickly.  If one cheats, steals, kills, harms others-then it will take a long, long time.  If everyone doesn't eat meat, the butcher won't kill animals and won't accumulate sin; then it will be easier for him to achieve Buddhahood."

Question: Do you think there is less sin in buying meat from a large meat market?

"Buying from a small and large meat market entails the same sin.  The killing is the same.  If you are a meat salesman and I order you to kill 100 kilograms of meat, then both of us receive the same sin.  It is definitely an act of harming.  There are five chickens.  If you buy one, there will be four left.  If you don't buy, he won't kill.  It's less harm if you buy less.  If you buy more, it is more harm.  The biggest sin is telling the butcher to kill some chickens for me tomorrow."

I asked him if there was a prayer for eating meat.  He said there were several.  He spent the next half-hour looking one up in an old text he had lying around.  He eventually found it, but part of the page was torn off and the text was too deteriorated for him to read it. Later, I got a meat eating prayer written in Tibetan for me in my notebook, but that notebook was lost when my bag was stolen.  So unfortunately, despite many attempts, I have not been able to find a translation of a prayer for eating meat.

"The sin is the same for killing a big or a small animal.  You can't say whether an animal will become a human or god in the next rebirth.  If you pray, they might be born in better realms.  Not eating meat is better than eating meat with a prayer.....

Dr. Tenzin Tsephal - Director of Tibetan Medicine for the Bylakuppe Refugee Camp (Late Thirties)
Tenzin struck me as a highly educated and sharp man who is one of the most qualified in the world in treating illness with traditional Tibetan medicines.  He spoke flawless English.

"The main concept of Buddhist philosophy is that if you can't help others, at least don't harm them.  You must respect the existence of other beings.  As far as practice is concerned, there will be a large variation among individuals in the extent to which they can use these beliefs.  A high Lama or a yogi will practice it in a different way than the average lay person.  They may go into a retreat without much social mingling and can really concentrate on cultivating bodhicitta or something.  As for myself, I am staying in society and depend on others.  The Dalai Lama says, when we are born, we depend on our parents.  When we get old we again depend on others for help.  Therefore, as grown-ups, we should really help others.  I can use the energy I have to help people.  Individuals have different capacities to help.  I am a doctor, so I try to help people with physical suffering.  All life is interdependent, and so helping others also helps yourself."

"As far as meat eating goes, Tibet is at a very high altitude and meat is necessary there due to the cold climate and the lack of availability of meat alternatives.  So it is habitual.  There was a poor trade situation in Tibet; you couldn't get non-regional food for the most part.  Now meat eating is reducing; many Tibetans are becoming vegetarians.  The basic Buddhist concept of non-harm is against eating meat, as you have to kill something.  The Lamas always taught that there is a big difference in killing the animal specifically for you or buying it already dead.  There are different degrees of sin, depending on how you obtain the meat, what weapons are used to kill it, what the motivation was, et cetera."

Question: Is meat eating necessary to the Tibetan physiology?

"It is not necessary at all.If someone gets weak, if their energy is very low, then they may need meat for a little while.  If there is a lot of imbalance in their body energies, then they should eat meat for a few days, and then go back to a pure vegetarian diet."

Question: Have there been any health problems among Tibetans who stop eating meat?

"No, most problems are caused by eating meat instead.  If we have meat for two or three days continuously, too much heat is created and one gets drowsy.  If one takes vegetarian food, they feel fresh and alert, with lots of energy.  Vegetarian food is perfect for hot weather.  Many in the younger generation are not so fond of meat.  Among the older ones, they don't want to stop, so they will say that their ears would start ringing if they didn't eat meat for ten days or something.  I don't really believe this, though.  I think all Tibetans can and should stop eating meat.  Losing weight is not really harmful at all.  In the Tibetan community there is a paranoia about being thin.  Fat is considered healthy and thin is considered bad.  When I went home to my parents after becoming vegetarian they remarked at how thin I was as if they were worried.  In the West it is good to be thin, but Tibetan culture considers a person who is fat to be a person who is eating well.  Being thin is far better in a hot climate.  A fat person sweats a lot and can't breathe well when it is hot.  Meat is unnecessary.  There are a lot of high-protein alternatives like soy.  Vegetables and legumes are the best sources of protein."

Question: Among young Tibetans who stop eating meat, do you think this is health-related, ethics-related or both?

"I don't know about others, but as far as my own personal experience, when I was in college I heard a lot about how eating meat is bad.For me, it combined the Indian climate with Buddhist ethics, and I gradually stopped eating meat for these reasons."

Question: Do you think it is necessary for His Holiness to eat meat to stay in good health?

"No, it is not necessary for him to eat meat.  His Holiness has a crazy routine, he gets only four or five hours of sleep and the rest of the 19 or 20 hours he is very busy and cheerful.  You can't compare His Holiness with normal people.  His Tibetan doctors visit him every day to check his pulse and so forth and prescribe him medicine for that day.  He takes Tibetan medicine faithfully every day, and encourages others to do so as well.  He really believes in it.  His Holiness likes fruits a lot, I don't know about tofu.  But tofu is very popular in Dharamsala in general."

Question: If someone stopped eating meat and lost weight, would you prescribe they eat meat again?

"I would never tell someone to start eating meat again once they've stopped.  It is like an alcoholic who stops drinking; it is not good to drink again even though he may have some problems being sober.  It is very bad to start drinking again, or eating meat again.  Alternatives are definitely the best.  I would never prescribe someone to start eating meat again.  The Tibetan doctors who do so are a bit old-fashioned and aren't as aware or open to the alternatives to eating meat."

"Tibetan medicine uses some animal products (snake meat, etc.) but now not too much, as the availability and legality of obtaining such things has changed.  Plant alternatives are now used in the place of animal products.  Namto Ling and Sera Je Monasteries don't serve non-vegetarian meals.  I had four vegetarian classmates in Tibetan medicine school and now more and more young people are eating primarily vegetarian food.  I ate only one or two non-vegetarian meals a month during college."

On the topic of health and meat eating, Patrul Rinpoche remarks,

"To have killed in a previous life makes our present life not only short, but also subject to frequent disease.  Sometimes babies die at birth as a result of having killed in their past life, and the same thing may well occur over and over gain for many lifetimes."17

Hlakpa Dorje - the Dalai Lamas Religious Translator (Early Sixties)
"In the sutras, it says that if one has not heard, seen or has any suspicion that an animal has been killed for them, it is acceptable to eat meat.  So most Tibetans follow this, and eat meat from a butcher rather than kill the animals themselves.  However, His Holiness has been encouraging the Tibetan community to cut down on their meat consumption, and if possible, adopt a vegetarian diet.  He requested in 1993 that the restaurants of the Dharamsala area that normally serve meat dishes become vegetarian so that the Tibetan community can experience delicious vegetarian food and learn how to stop eating meat.

Several of the area restaurants became vegetarian after that, and I think that it has turned out how His Holiness envisioned, and people are getting the idea that eating meat is not necessary after all to make good food.  Dharamsala has a lot of tofu, which was introduced to the people by the restaurants that switched over to vegetarian.  The Dalai Lama, three years ago, took up a new policy for his own diet.  He now eats a small amount of meat every other day, and eats pure vegetarian food (including no eggs) every other day.  Thus, he tells people that he is vegetarian six months of the year.  In 1965, he became pure vegetarian and was very adamant about it.  Unfortunately he got frail with hepatitis, and both his Tibetan doctors and Western doctors advised him to start eating meat again.  He regained his health soon after.

So, the Dalai Lama still eats small amounts of meat.  However, he has been very adamant in stressing to the Tibetan people that on special Buddhist holidays and other days where merit is magnified, meat should be avoided altogether.  For the sake of the Dharma and for the health of the Tibetans in exile, he requests that his people eat less and less meat and gradually try to become vegetarian."

Pema - President of the Tibetan Youth Congress (Mid-Thirties)
"It is quite clear to me that a serious Buddhist practitioner cannot justify eating meat.  Those who say that buying meat from a market doesn't involve much sin have a fundamental lack of understanding of basic economics-supply and demand.  If we Tibetans didn't buy so much meat in and around Dharamsala, the butchers would simply be out of business and countless animals would be saved from the knife.  The Indians don't buy much meat because most of them are Hindus and vegetarianism is quite widely spread.

It is unfortunate that Tibetans still eat so much meat, especially monks at the monastery.  That is truly shameful.  A monk needs to uphold his vows and one of the primary vows is to not kill.  Eating meat is unquestionably a violation of this vow, and thus the monks who continue to eat meat in exile when it us completely unnecessary, are disgracing the Tibetan monastic tradition.  Especially now, since Tibetan Buddhism is spreading so widely throughout the world and to the West, monks really need to stop eating meat.  When Westerners see this, and hear the next day at a Dharma talk that they are supposed to be saving all sentient beings from suffering, they often get quite confused.  Buddhism is supposed to dispel confusion, not create more of it.

Therefore, monks especially, and also lay Tibetan Buddhists, must stop eating meat.  If we are to preserve the integrity of Tibetan Buddhism, it is time we realize that eating meat is very sinful and we must simply give it up.  Eggs, pork and chicken are the worst and should be given up first, as they do not provide nearly as much meat as a yak for instance.  But all meat should be avoided if possible"....

On buying meat, Patrul Rinpoche responds,

"Some people imagine that only the person who physically carries out the killing is creating a negative karmic effect, and that the person who just gave the orders is notor if he is, then only a little.  But you should know that the same karmic result comes to everyone involved, including even anyone who just felt pleased about it and therefore how much more so it is for the person who actually ordered that the killing be carried out.  Each person gets the whole karmic result of killing one animal.  It is not as if one act of killing could be divided up among people."

On meat eating among Buddhists, Patrul Rinpoche responds,

"In Buddhism, once we have taken refuge in the Dharma, we have to give up harming others.  To have an animal killed everywhere we go, and to enjoy its flesh and blood is surely against the precepts of taking refuge, is it not?  More particularly, in the Bodhisattva tradition of the Great Vehicle, we are supposed to be the refuge and protectors of all infinite beings.  The beings with unfortunate karma that we are supposed to be protecting are instead being killed without the slightest compassion, and their boiled flesh and blood are being presented to us and we-their protectors, the Bodhisattvasthen-then gobble it all up gleefully, smacking our lips.  What could be worse than that?"

Geshe Thupten Phelgye - Founder of Universal Compassion Movement (Thirties)
Geshe Thupten Phelgye from Sera Je monastery is now living in Dharamsala, running his organization Universal Compassion Movement and serving as a member of the International Gelugpa Executive Committee.  He gets his income by running a four- story apartment complex, which forbids meat inside its walls.  Non-vegetarians aren't allowed to apply for a room.  He has a billboard across from the Dalai Lama's residence at one of Dharamsalas main intersections that reads, "Take Pity on Animals, Don't Cause Their Slaughter, Become a Vegetarian."  The same message is written in Tibetan.  He also puts up flyers around town to encourage Tibetans to follow the Buddha's teachings and become vegetarian.

He was born in Bylakuppe, India to very poor parents who farmed their small plot of land and often had trouble putting food on the table.  He wanted to help his family to improve their standard of living, so he tried to join the army at age 13.  He was turned down because of his age, so he tried again at age 14.  The army recruiter felt sorry for him and paid for his education until age 18.  At this point, his mother became sick and wanted him to look after her.  However, Thupten had his life ahead of him and didn't want to spend more time at home.He told his parents he would either go back to school or go to the monastery, so his parents sent him to Sera Je.He flourished at Sera, and after the required training, earned a Geshe degree.

In 1980 in the nearby town of Kushal Nagar, he saw a chicken that had been in the grass and eating corn days earlier, with its head cut off, convulsing in the butcher shop.  At this point, he decided to give up meat and eggs.  For his Geshe degree reception, he agreed to have all of the traditional foods, just no meat.  The monks at the reception raved about how good the vegetarian food was.  Shortly after, there was an all-day food offering given to the monastery by a local Tibetan, complete with three truckloads of meat.

He relates, "The monks spent all morning chop, chop, chopping the meat, hacking away at the red flesh with their big knives.  There was meat momos, meat soup and just plain meat.  By the end of the day there were so many bones on the ground that it was hard to walk.  It was horrible.  He talked to the Abbot about it and said that something had to be done.  He said that it was hard for him to be a monk and have all of this suffering and sorrow in the form of meat being caused by the monastery.  The Abbot agreed.  Soon after, at a large puja, the Abbot announced that from that day forward, there would be no meat allowed at offerings, pujas or in the mass hall at Sera Je Monastery.  Monks who wanted to continue eating meat would have to do so on their own.

Soon after receiving his Geshe degree, Thupten and his mother went to Dharamsala to receive the Dalai Lama's blessings.  The Dalai Lama encouraged Geshe Thupten to go to America and teach, but the young Geshe decided he wanted to work on reforming the Tibetan community, and stayed in Dharamsala.  He had difficulties finding his mother a place to stay, so in exasperation had to build his own house.  A plan for a simple residence turned into a four-story building with two and three-room apartments for rent.  He started the Universal Compassion Movement and is now working on making it an influential organization.

He acquired hepatitis several months ago, which his doctors told him could be fatal.  He is taking many Tibetan medicines, and showing improvements, but still worries about launching his organization before he passes away.  He is a remarkable man.  On his book shelf, lie animal rights staples, such as Peter Singer's Animal Liberation, John Robbin's Diet for a New America and Eric Marcus' Vegan, the New Ethics of Eating.  He has pictures of animals on his shrine to the Buddha, below a large picture of the Dalai Lama.  He drinks milk, but says he would be vegan if he had lived in America, due to the poor treatment of cows there.

His laugh is full and comes easily.  He looks quite healthy and is neither thin nor fat.  His face is beautiful and large, kind of like Mao's.  His mother lives in the apartment room next to his own.  He tells me that he has always been a sort of rebel, and his views on Tibetan culture and religion show this.  He thinks the primary purpose of Buddha's philosophy is to apply it to everyday life.  For instance, he told me,

"Instead of lighting countless butter lamps and emitting black smoke into the realm of the gods, why not put up a new street light?  Instead of circumambulating a stupa, buy an animal back from the slaughterhouse.  Putting the Buddha's teachings into action is sorely lacking in how Tibetans approach Buddhism.  The fact that almost all Tibetans eat meat is a sad example of this."

I found his flyer very interesting, and so I am putting it as it is on the next page.  He told me that he had put the flyers all around Dharamsala, and that the Tibetans had started to complain to Dawa Norbu, Mayor of Dharamsala, saying that they had made them feel bad about themselves.  Geshe Phelgye explained to Norbu that he was trying to help the Tibetan community to live more compassionately in accordance with the Dalai Lamas wishes, and so the flyers were not taken down.

Trulshig Rinpoche - Abbot of Monastery in Boudha, Nepal,
"It is not suitable for Buddhists whose belief system is founded on compassion to have their sustenance based in killing."

Navina Lamminger - Dharma Student from Germany
"We talked in one of our Dharma lessons about eating meat.  The Geshe said that he couldn't advise people not to eat meat, because then he would be more compassionate than Buddha himself."

An appeal to you
The world today has become very cruel: humans are eating almost all the animals -- innocent sentient beings, domestic and wild-- among them poultry, snakes, frogs and the various animals that live in the sea.  All of them experience the same pain and suffering when they are brutally slaughtered.

So to enjoy meat is absolutely contradictory to the nature of love and peace-- the principles of all true religion.  Even in the general sense, to eat meat is totally unjust to helpless animals.  Therefore as Buddhists, we must pay more attention to this fact since our commitment is to practice compassion to all mother sentient beings.  Furthermore, human welfare is dependent on the environment of which these living beings are also a part.  Thus, when we destroy them, we destroy ourselves.

His Holiness the Dalai Lama is very much concerned about this and has spoken many times about the importance of vegetarianism.  The Buddha also strictly condemned meat eating.  In the Lanka Vatara Sutra found in the fifth volume of the Kagyur, he said, "All sentient beings are equal to me as my only son-- how can I allow my followers to eat the flesh of my son..." He added, "Eating meat, to me, is out of the question.  I have never allowed, am not ever allowing and will never allow it because I have strictly condemned meat eating in every way.

There is another benefit too: saving others' lives extends one's own life.  Even in regard to health, refraining from eating meat can prevent heart disease, cancer, tuberculosis, high blood pressure and so on.

Therefore my appeal to you is this: give up eating meat from today-- for the rest of your life, even for a few years, one year or a few months.  At least try to reduce the meat in your daily diet.

Please do this for the following reasons:

• to cause the long life of His Holiness the Dalai Lama and other world leaders for peace
• to save the lives of innocent animals
• for your own health and long life
• to preserve the environment for coming generations.

Thank you.

Concerned people should send their contact details and thoughts to:

Geshe Thupten Phelgye
Ahimsa House, Library Rd.
McGleod Ganj, 176219 H.P India
Geshe Gepal-Sera Je Secretary(Thirties)

"In 1980, when I was in Kathmandu, I went on a picnic with some other monks from Sera.  There was a Nepali family there and they had a goat tied up and some chickens.  They let the chickens go, and then their little boys chased them around the park until they caught them.  When they caught the chickens they cut their heads off and roasted them over a fire.  It really made me sick.  Later, I offered to buy their goat to save its life, but they got really nasty with me and told me to leave them alone.  At that point, I realized that eating meat was evil and I stopped eating meat and eggs.

"I used to be very strong.  I could lift two forty-kilogram sacks of grain over each shoulder and run with them.  I could pick up 250-pound monks without a problem.  But when I became vegetarian, I started to lose my strength.  My parents and my doctor were worried about me, and they begged me to start eating meat again.  After they had done this, I lay in my bed thinking, Do I want to live a compassionate lifestyle or not?  I was certain that eating meat was wrong, and so I told myself that even if I die, I am going to do what is right for myself, the animals and the Buddha.  So I continued to be a vegetarian.  I learned how to get enough protein, and gradually I gained back my weight.

"I served awhile as the director of the Sera Health Advisory Committee, and tried to introduce tofu into the monastery.  I brought in all the equipment to make it, and it was available for the monks for several months.  They found it too expensive, however, and hard to keep in the hot weather, so this idea failed.  I kept trying to come up with creative vegetarian options for the monastic dining halls, and after several years of effort, I resigned.

"I think that all people need to realize their ethical stances on their own terms, so I dont harass others about eating meat.Of course, I think it is wrong for a monk to do, but I recognize the realities of Tibet and the time it is going to take for Tibetans to adapt to a vegetarian diet.  In southern India, a vegetarian diet is best.  I find I have a lot of energy, and can outlast the other monastic workers.  I feel strong"....

Chatal Rinpoche

This 88-year-old Nyingma Lama and Yogi, is the Abbot of dozens of monasteries in India and Nepal.  He is extremely active, traveling constantly and helping sentient beings with his every action.  He has been a vegetarian since he came from Tibet in 1958, and spends most of his money releasing fish from the Calcutta fish markets.  Meat is not allowed in any of his monasteries, and his wife estimated that 20% of his several thousands of disciples are vegetarian.

Question: Why did you decide to stop eating meat?  How old were you when you made this decision?

"It is written in the Hinayana and Mahayana texts that one should not eat meat.  There is also a Vajrayana text which says the same thing, that one should not enjoy meat or alcohol.  Because of this I am following the instructions of Shakyamuni Buddha.  Being a religious person myself, I don't take meat or alcohol and at the same time I try to tell other people not to take these things.  This is my reason-I'm just trying to motivate other people not to take alcohol or meat.  I was 47 years old when I went to Bodhgaya and made a vow to all of the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas to give up meat and alcohol."

Question: Why do you think vegetarianism is an important aspect of practicing the Dharma?

"If you take meat, it goes against the vows one takes in seeking refuge in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha.  Because when you take meat you have to take a beings life.  So I gave up eating meat."

Question: Some claim that one can help the animals one eats by praying for them, and thus eating meat is compassionate.  Other than for the most accomplished Yogis and Lamas, what do you make of this claim?

"With super natural power gained through certain meditations, it is true there are some who can revive animals from the dead and help them reach higher rebirth or enlightenment by consuming small amounts of their flesh.  But this is not done for sustenance, only for the purpose of helping that animal.  I personally do not have that power and because of that I never eat meat.  Eating meat in ones diet is much different than eating flesh to liberate a being through super natural powers.  I am just an ordinary monk who really doesn't have these qualities.  So, if I ate meat it would be the same if you or any other lay person ate meat.  I would be committing sin and I would be getting negative karma.  I don't pretend as if I have some powers and eat meat.  I just avoid it altogether."

Question: What is your opinion on His Holiness the Dalai Lama's meat eating?

"Well, you'll have to ask him yourself about meat eating.  With regard to what hes telling people about meat now and before, it is all dependent on the state of his mind and his spiritual development.  After His Holiness came to India, I didn't see him.  So I never had the chance to meet him, so I have nothing to say.  One should be very decisive of the things one talks about.  You shouldnt be ambiguous, but must say, 'This is it. This is what I believe.' " (He is referring to the Dalai Lamas discouraging meat consumption, yet eating meat himself.)

Question: Do you know of other Lamas who are vegetarian?

"I know many of them from Tibet.  There are Nyingma, Sakya and Gelugpa vegetarians in Tibet.  Compared to the many meat-eating Lamas, vegetarian Lamas are very few though.  I'm 88 and during my experience I have come across many Lamas in Kham, Amdoall parts of Tibet-who don't eat meat.  There are Lamas who eat meat and those who don't.  At my monastery in Tibet, there are also Lamas who take meat and those who don't...."

Chatal Rinpoche

Question: Do you see Tibetan Buddhists in exile making a sincere effort to reduce their meat consumption and become vegetarian, or has meat eating become an entrenched aspect of Tibetan culture?

"In Tibet, theres only meat and tsampathere is no other staple food.  Tibet is at a high altitude and the climate is like a tundra.  There are not many vegetables and fruits.  After getting here, you really dont have to follow the Tibetan customs of meat and tsampa.  There are fruits and all kinds of vegetables, nutritional supplements-all kinds of good food.  Everything is available.  So there is really no need to talk about the customs of Tibet.  It's a different place.  You can take vegetables and fruits here in abundance and it is not necessary to eat meat.

If you don't take meat, it's very good from my experience.  I'm 88 and ever since I stopped eating meat, I haven't gotten any major sickness.  If I sleep, I sleep well.  If I get up, I can walk right away.  If I read religious texts, I can see them properly.  I have very good hearing and can listen attentively.  I have had no major sickness.  These are the qualities I have experienced from not taking meat.  I didn't get sick when I stopped eating meat.  I didnt die.  Nothing came-no negative consequences came to me.  I can travel by vehicle, airplane or train without a problem.  I never vomit. I don't get dizzy or get headaches.

So these are all qualities of giving up meat.  This is what I experience.  I am also a human being formed with flesh and blood, and am proof that giving up meat does not make one ill, like many Tibetans seem to think.  If there were negative effects from giving up meat, I would have felt them, which has not been the case.  Only good things have happened to me from giving up meat.  Im telling this from my own experience."

Question: Many Tibetans quote a Hinayana text that says that if meat is not heard, seen or suspected to have been killed for you, then it is acceptable to eat it.  How do you respond to this?

"If the animal being killed is unseen, then it is something like stealing something without being caught.  That is also allowed in this thinking.  You can say something dirty without being heard, as if you need evidence to judge whether it is a sin or not.  What they say is not right.  Killing, stealing and other negative actions can never be gotten away with.  Even if other people don't see you do them, the deities and Buddhas and Bodhisattvas see you doing these things.  There is a Tibetan saying that even if one does not get caught committing a sin, that the gods catch you every time.  It is impossible to do anything without being seen.  You're always being watched by the deities.  They see and understand what you did-they know that you helped to kill an animal by buying meat.  This is my answer."

Question: Some monks have told me that since insects are killed in the production of rice and other vegetables, then there is really no difference between eating those things and eating meat.What do you think about this?

"This would mean that you wouldn't eat anything and let the people die.  If you say you were going to go for a week without killing insects through the food you eat, then you would die.  If you die, this precious human life is being wasted.  So if you just let your body be destroyed, that means you are taking your own life, which is killing in itself.  You can always take the insect from the rice when you see it and let it free outside.  You don't necessary have to kill beings to eat.  Although, when we walk we crush many insects under our feet.  We may not see them or observe them, but still we must be killing them.  Not being aware doesn't mean that we have not created any sin.  Because after all, cause and effect are always there.

"Every year in Tibet, there is a festival called Yoray.  It is a time of year that the Tibetans in the past did not travel so much.  It was observed primarily to avoid killing insects by walking.  But, now in this decadent age, hardly any people make the effort to stay in one place for long.  We are nearing the end of an era, where people who say they are followers of the Buddha steal, commit adultery, and run businesses that profit from dishonesty.  They do all sorts of unrighteous things.  There are some bad obstacles to the Buddha Dharma, and due to these people doing things they are not supposed to do.  Because of this, there is a lot of war, the use of harmful weapons and all sorts of negative things happening.

The big nations and small nations all have disputes with each other most of the time. There is unrest everywhere. All kinds of negative actions are running rampant and sins are frequent.  Because of that, there is no timely rainfall, which leads to droughts. Natural disasters are common. Whenever someone says something, it is always tinged with negativities.  Those who live in peace and tranquility are being robbed. Those who are giving teachings of the holy Dharma to other people, are not given the proper respect and the sacred Dharma is wasted.  The situation is becoming very bad. Both outside and inside, there are disputes, among families and nations. These are the results of our past negativities, and we must take responsibility for them."

Pema-Student of Buddhism (Late Twenties)
I was fortunate to meet with the daughter of Tarthang Tulku Rinpoche, named Pema.  Tarthang Tulku Rinpoche is the most prominent Nyingma figure in the United States, and his daughter grew up in the U.S., studying at Berkeley.  She considers herself to be a close friend of Chatal Rinpoche.

"Most Tibetans in Tibet don't eat eggs.  When Chatal Rinpoche was offered crepes a while ago, he asked me if they had eggs in them.  I nodded my head to say yes, and Rinpoche was repulsed by them and refused to eat them.  Meat eating is high on Chatal Rinpoches spiritual radar.  Rinpoche is so connected with animals.  He loves animals.  He loves watching wildlife videos on T.V.  His great compassion caused him to stop eating meat.  He gives all his money to save 70 truckloads of fish in Calcutta.  It is his most important yearly activity to save the fish.  He prays for every bucket-full he dumps into the ocean, trying to bring them to a higher rebirth.

Tibetans have a guilt complex about their meat eating.  When I say I'm a vegetarian, they say, "That's great!" as if it is an enormous sacrifice that they can't fathom. In the Dharma, it is not just a matter of not doing something-not eating meat for instance-but actively protecting life. Rinpoche lives by this. He is so connected on a vast level to sentient beings and their suffering.

"Rinpoche is drawn to dark, sinful, murderous placesto Hindu animal sacrifice areas.  He took myself and his daughter, Sera Sati, to one once.  It was beautiful on the outside, with flowers and carvings.  He bought some birds in a cage and released them at the top of the roof.  Then we came to the goat sacrifice place.

At first, I had my eyes closed, but then I saw innocent goats being murdered and blood was everywhere.  I was horrified.  Rinpoche calmly walked all over the goats' blood as if he was doing a walking meditation. He wasn't a bit fazed by it.  I think he was trying to teach us the lesson of being fearless and patient in the face of suffering.  Goats are very sensitive beings-they are very afraid of being killed. It's so awful. Meat was such a turnoff to me at the cafeteria in Berkeley, where I attended school.  Seeing it made me nauseous.

"Young monks who do not have good protein sources feel that meat is the essence of their diet.  A small dollop of daal on their rice is about all they get without the meat. I can sympathize with this. I don't think it is a common thing to recite prayers while eating meat, although there may be some kind of an apology to the animals they are eating. The key is for high-level Lamas who teach compassion not to eat meat themselves.  Instead of just talking, they need to show compassion through their actions. It is common for Mahayana practitioners to look down on Hinayana monks, who are mostly vegetarian. They often say that since they have taken the Bodhisattva vows, they are above the Hinayana vows not to kill.  But, of course, the Vajrayana recognizes that all three schools are essential aspects of cumulative Dharma."

Chatal Rinpoche wrote a piece called 'On Flesh Eating' which I will re-produce in its entirety at this point. It was translated by my friend Geshe Phelgye, and is yet unpublished in English, but available in Tibetan at bookstores.

'On Flesh Eating'
by Chatal Rinpoche

Meat, the sinful food, is never permitted in all the three vows: not in the vows of individual liberation, the Bodhisattva vows, nor the Tantric vows.  Thus Buddha stated, "I have never approved, do not approve, and will never approve a meat diet." He declared, "My followers must never eat meat."

In general, both the butcher and the customer of meat will suffer in such realms as the burning and boiling hells.  As Buddha said, "Killing animals for profit and paying for meat are both evil deeds; whoever does them will be reborn among the screams and cries of the hells."  Intentionally eating meat is violating Buddhist principles.  "Even the so called 'approved meat' requires the effort of checking (if it is 'approved') and begging or some other means of attainment too.

Therefore, one should never eat meat.  Both myself and other Buddhas say: an adept will not eat meat.  Those beings which consume each other will be reborn as carnivores-they will give off a stench and be held in low esteem.  Even after such miserable human births as these, they will descend lower, being reborn as such animals as cats and owls.  Since the Buddhas, Bodhisattvas and shravakas have all condemned meat-eating, one who still eats meat without shame will be reborn into insanity.  Those who give up eating meat will be reborn as wise and healthy Brahmans.

Meat which one has seen, heard, or suspected to have come from an animal slaughtered for meat is to be condemned.  Dialecticians who are born as meat-eaters will not understand this.  These close-minded meat-eating gossipers will one day blame me, saying that the Buddha has said that there is no sin in eating meat!  An adept enjoys vegetarian food in appropriate quantity and views meat as unfit to eat as the flesh of ones own son.  Eating meat is a horrifying sight and prevents progress towards Nirvana.  One should not eat meat, for (practicing non-harm) is the victory banner of liberation."

In the "Parinirvana Sutra", Buddha speaks to Kasyapa saying, "Blessed son, those who have the mindfulness of the shravakas are not allowed to eat meat from now on.  Even if ones master offers one meat with genuine faith, one should see it as the flesh of his own son."  Bodhisattva Kasyapa asked Buddha, "Lord, why do you not allow the eating of meat?"  Buddha replied, "Blessed son, eating meat hinders the development of compassion; therefore, whoever is mindful of me should not eat meat from now on.  Kasyapa, wherever a meat eater goes, lies, sits, or walks, other sentient beings become fearful upon smelling him.  Blessed son, just as when a man eats garlic others will keep away because of his bad smell, likewise, animals, when they smell the meat eater, fear death."

Kasyapa asked Buddha, "Lord, as monks, nuns and novice monks are dependent for their food on other people, what should they do when they are offered food with meat?"  Buddha replied to Kasyapa, "Separate the food and meat, wash the food, and then eat.  You may use your begging bowl if it does not have the smell or taste of meat; otherwise, you should wash the bowl.  If the food has too much meat, one should not accept it.  Do not eat food if you see that there is meat in it; if you do then you will accumulate demerit.  There will be no end if I speak thoroughly about the reasons I do not allow meat-eating.  I have given a brief reply because the time has come for my parinirvana."

Buddha has further elucidated the faults of meat-eating in the "Angulimala Sutra" as well as in the "Siksammu Caya" compendium of precepts.  Furthermore, the treasure teaching of Padmasambhava called "Rinchin Dronme" (The Precious Lamp) clearly condemns the eating of meat for both lay and ordained people by exhorting, "All the followers of Buddha: monks or nuns, novice or lay have seven main principles to follow.These are the 'four root principles', and abstinence from alcohol, meat and evening food."

If some people argue that Buddhas condemnation of meat applies only to the seven classes of Vinaya vows and is unrelated to the Mahayana and Tantrayana, then this clearly indicates their lack of proper knowledge.  They have not even seen the following chapter from the Vinaya sutra: Meat-eating is the diet that vanquishes the three realms (desire, form and formless realms).  It is the weapon that destroys the potential for liberation.  It is the fire that burns the seed of Buddhahood.  It is the shaft of lightning that ends rebirth in the higher realms or a precious human rebirth.

Since meat-eating is not approved for anyone, not for monks, nuns or lay-holders, those who are committed Buddhist practitioners are never allowed to eat meat.  One who has taken the Bodhisattva vows will incur great sin in eating the flesh of sentient beings who were ones parents in past lives.  Even in Tantryana, meat is not allowed until one attains the ultimate view and wisdom.

Tulshig Pema Dudul, speaking of a pure appearance, said, "The great compassionate one (Avalokitishvara) appeared in the sky in front of me and spoke, 'You have attained generating stages and acquired some knowledge, yet you are lacking in love and compassion.  Compassion is the root of the Dharma and with compassion it is impossible to eat meat.  One who eats meat will experience much misery and illness.  Look at the miserable ones!  Every one is experiencing suffering according to their deeds...  One who gives up meat will not experience this suffering.  Instead, Great Guru Buddha's deities, Bodhisattvas, and dakinis will rejoice and protect you."   Having heard this, Tulshig gave up meat forever.

Many more renowned adepts have condemned meat as a poisonous food.  Machig Labdron, a renowned female practitioner of chod had said, "For me eating meat is out of the question.  I feel great compassion when I see helpless animals looking up with fearful eyes.  "Rigzin Jigme Lingpa, a great yogi of the Nyingma tradition stated, "Just as in the story of Arya Katayana going to beg for food, I see that the animal which this meat must have come from was our mother in earlier lives.  If so, can we eat our own mothers flesh that was slaughtered by butchers?  Imagine how much concern would arise!  Therefore, if we concentrate honestly, there is no way we won't feel compassion for the animal."

Some people who claim themselves to be practitioners say, "At least some meat and alcohol is necessary to keep healthy, otherwise weakness or death may occur."  This is not true.  However, even if death should follow from engaging in the Dharma practice of abstaining from meat and alcohol, then it is worth it.  As the great adept Tsele Rigzin said,

"From the bottom of my heart I pray
Never to be with carnivores and drinkers
In this and lives coming
May an ordained never be born where meat
And alcohol are used without morality
If I should die
Due to the absence of meat and alcohol
That will be fulfilling of Buddha's wishes
Thus I shall be a most successful adept!"

Bodhisattva Jigme Chokkyiwangpa said, "As Buddhists we have taken the triple refuge.To take refuge in the Dharma, one must practice nonviolence to sentient beings.Thus, if we continue to eat meat which has come from the slaughtering of innocent animals, then is this not a contradiction of our Buddhist commitments?"

Knowing all these faults of meat and alcohol, I have made a commitment to give up meat and alcohol in front of the great Bodhi tree in Bodh Gaya with the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas of the ten directions as my witnesses.  I have also declared this moral to all my monasteries.  Therefore, any one who listens to me is requested not to break this Dharmic moral.

The majority of these interviews seemed to have an anti-meat slant.  Yet, all but two of the interviewees ate meat.  Some of the monks I had talked to whom I did not include in this chapter, became very defensive about their meat eating, saying it is a central part of Tibetan culture and that it shouldn't be messed up with.  Others got angry, feeling they were being judged.  However, my motivation throughout this process was simply an exploration of how Tibetan people, known throughout the world as valuing compassion, justify killing animals for food.  For the most part, I was very impressed with their sincerity and the thought put into their responses.  We will see if the Tibetan custom of eating meat gradually changes to be in closer accordance with the Buddhas doctrine, or if it remains integral to the Tibetan lifestyle.